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Infidel 12:35 Mon Aug 8
Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Wonderful to see the success of young libertarians in Brazil.

They have already kicked out the corrupt old socialist hag Rousseff who was robbing the treasury blind and now they are taking the fight to the rest of the socialist mafia in government who have plunged the country into recession.

Their leader is a charismatic 20 year old. It's no longer cool for da yoot to be a Leftie in Brazil ...there is hope for humanity after all.

http://capx.co/external/why-is-libertarianism-catching-on-so-fast-in-brazil/

Mike Oxsaw 12:36 Sun Aug 14
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Is not the wealth in an estate taxed at it's point of creation?

That the wealth then rises in value due to outside influences should be no excuse to tax it again upon it's transfer through inheritance.

Gavros 11:45 Sat Aug 13
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Punitive inheritance tax is an interesting idea but practically unworkable.

The amount of money that would leave the country were it to be introduced could spark a mini currency crisis.

Hermit Road 10:54 Sat Aug 13
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

A true libertarian would be talking about lowering income tax through creating a smaller government. A Marxist talks about taxing the rich to maintain a big government.

Infidel 10:20 Sat Aug 13
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

grapes

I'll add your post to the long list of those who fail to understand what the proposal is.

If you want to argue the case then give me a rationale for hiking income tax up to very high levels in order to allow windfall gains from inheritance to be essentially tax free.

Because that's the argument. If you reply with reference only to IHT without any mention of income tax it means you haven't understood.

Hermit Road 11:31 Sat Aug 13
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Infidel,

Any tax can be judged against libertarian/Marxist principles. If it leads to massive capital flight and extensive government control, it's closer to Marxism than libertarianism.

As for how important it is, it's not really. It isn't going to prevent me enjoying laying my post breakfast, Saturday morning cable in a minute. Having said that, it was important enough for you to start a thread about.

arsegrapes 5:56 Sat Aug 13
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Brucies_Star_Prize 3:28 Fri Aug 12

Infidel you have had a mare here.
Punitive IHT is unworkable, tax the rich and they will leave the country and others will not come, the rest will not bother creating wealth if it is to be taken away as there is no incentive. Advocating a communist state where all are equally poor and no one has anything to aspire to, because that is what would happen will not work, there is a reason why most of Eastern Europe are on our door step.

Infidel 4:49 Sat Aug 13
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

it means that the merit of the proposal has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's 'libertarian'.

You can argue that it is or that it isn't, but in the end who cares?

Hermit Road 9:10 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

"It isn't libertarian (so what?)"


What did that mean then?

Hammer and Pickle 8:59 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

I find him fascinating Gav.

Hammer and Pickle 8:58 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

The property market would certainly collapse overnight.

Gavros 8:58 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

boring cunt.

Infidel 8:56 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Hermit

First, I did not say that my tax proposals are not libertarian. I think it's irrelevant whether they are or are not because it's peripheral to the argument about government interference in our lives.

That said you and Brucie make a very good point about the practicalities of punitive IHT. I agree that people would try to avoid it by giving it away before they die.

That is already the case by the way, and the current rule is that if you die within seven years of the gift being made it is taxable (the level depends on how many years before the 7 is up). If you live for seven years after the gift it's tax free.

I would like to see all large gifts being taxable at the same high rate as inheritances because they are essentially the same thing.

Your argument that it would lead to government control of how you spend your wealth during your lifetime though holds no water. It's a phoney argument. I can't even understand it actually. People will spend their money on houses, cars, art, women and drugs as they do now. They will probably spend it even faster as they can't pass it on. That's no bad thing.

Brucies_Star_Prize 3:28 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

The idea is great in principle but largely unworkable in practice.

A highly punitive IHT would simply lead to people avoiding it, namely liquidating their assets and passing them on to their children prior to them dying. I doubt it would result in the increased tax revenue that would enable a significant reduction in income tax.

You could of course tax any transfer of wealth regardless of how long before death it occurs, but then you're going down a route which is essentially telling people how they can spend their money whilst alive. I don't think you'll find many people who would support that view, regardless of how much you reduced their income tax.

Hermit Road 3:17 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Infidel,

You started a thread espousing libertarian principles as the way forward, and have spent the rest of the time defending a view that you now admit isn't libertarian.

On the question of why it wouldn't work, this is what I think. It could work, but only if you extended the tax to cover how people spent their money while they were alive. For example, if someone wanted to give their money to someone else while they were alive to avoid your huge tax on the money left at the end of their life after they'd already paid tax on it, then you would tax them again. At 80%. If they wanted to buy a painting, house or car for them, you'd tax them at 80%.

The only way to make it work is to extend government control over how an individual spends their money to a level never before seen in any country that wasn't socialist.

That's why your idea is socialist, it is about big government taking more control of the lives of its citizens.

Margaret Thatcher would have been embarrassed to be supported by you I think.

Infidel 1:57 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

The Grosvenors paid no IHT because their estates are held in a trust, so technically they are not owned by any of the family members.

That loophole needs to be closed. The Grosvenor estate should have been taxed fully on the Duke's death.

But we also need to take away the threshold at the other end. Right now an inheritee can trouser £325,000 without paying any tax at all. Since most estates are below this number the total revenue from inheritance tax is very small - which means income taxes have to be kept higher.

By abolishing the threshold and making all inheritees pay tax on their windfall gain IHT would start to be a serious contributor to the Treasury. And if we bump up the rate of IHT to 80% or so, as I am suggesting, it will allow us to make a dramatic cut in income tax.

The arguments on here against that proposal so far are:

1. It isn't libertarian (so what?)
2. It's marxist/Trotskyite (no it isn't)
3. the government will waste the money (it's a switch of taxation from earned to unearned, so this is a redundant comment)
4. why should I hand over my money to the government when I die? (so that your kids can pay much lower income tax and lead richer and more affluent lives)

Not one person has yet tried to make a case for the burden of taxation being on earned income so that inheritance can be made essentially tax free. For the obvious reason.

Hermit Road 12:19 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

"Generic leftie"? If you don't agree with taxing the rich more so that lower earners pay less tax, then you're not only not a generic leftie, but you're not a leftie at all.

, 12:10 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

What a shame for you that I do not seem to fit your definition of generic leftie.

Hermit Road 11:52 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

Not even the huge taxes?

, 11:41 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

I don't go along with much that infidel proposes for us. The more so as we still have a system where a minority view governs.

Hermit Road 11:29 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

"," infidel intends to go full-on Trotsky and dictate how they spend it before they die to avoid your scenario.

I thought you'd be a big fan of his on this one.

, 11:17 Fri Aug 12
Re: Libertarians taking over in Brazil

The fact is that if Estates were to go to the exchequer the only ones to get there would have little or no value. Just look at what is happening to the late Duke of Wesrminster's money as an example.

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